Landing Page Tests That Convert
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Kanika Misra, owner of bedabedagrowth.com joins the podcast to discuss and debunk some common misconceptions regarding conversion rate optimization (CRO). Kanika emphasizes that there is no universal target conversion rate and stresses the importance of focusing on the post-click experience and ensuring that the website is functioning properly.
The conversation shifts to what to look out for and what to avoid when looking for a CRO specialist along with actionable advice for fashion and apparel brands to improve their CRO.
Key Takeaways:
Why a universal target conversion rate does not exist
How focusing on the post-click experience is one of the most important things for CRO.
How Analyzing user behavior can help identify areas for improvement.
How using different-sized models can help customers feel more confident in their purchasing decisions.
Why copywriting plays a significant role in CRO.
The value setting up quality tests over a quantity of tests
Why it is so important to use caution before venturing on a site redesign
If you'd like to connect with Kanika and the Beda Beda Growth team, you can find them here:
If you'd like to learn more about the Founders Community or want to become a member you can do so here.
Full Transcript:
Tris Dyer (00:00.206)
heads are all level and stuff. Okay, cool.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (00:02.397)
Yeah, I did this just for you. I was scrambling before this. Usually it's like when I get banished to this room, so I'm like looking down on people. So I was like, all right, I'll go get my stand. I'll move it from my desk. It'll be fine. It's cause I love you guys. You're welcome. I have not, how are you, Edward?
Tris Dyer (00:05.838)
I'm like.
Tris Dyer (00:11.15)
no. Love that. Do you know Edwin? Have you met him before? Okay. This is, I was going to say, Edwin's a long time friend of mine now. We've been doing this podcast. This is the second year we're actually doing it now. It's a year and a half we were at this. First year was just us musing, just chatting about what we saw. Then we went, hang on, there are way smarter people than us doing this. So we're like.
Edwin @ Snappic (00:21.117)
I'm well, I'm well.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (00:23.517)
Good, good to meet you.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (00:30.108)
Nice.
Tris Dyer (00:40.238)
I know what we're gonna do. So I think we're on like, this is episode 34, this is week 34 of doing this. So we've been at this a while. And so it's fantastic to kind of, you know, still have an amazing group of people. Like, it's not like it's running out, or we're kind of, you know, there's not enough people. There's gonna be like, there's so many people talking about so many different things from measurement, from meta, from everything. And this is unbelievable. So.
Yeah, we got a pretty like the way we do this is like, it's really casual, as I said in the chat. It's super casual, super like just chatting about stuff. And when we ask the questions, it's almost like like they're there because we want to know. We're interested. We're like, what's this? And I love the reaction is super Boston. So super. The fuck you doing? Like that's the city. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (01:27.164)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. I like it, I like it. I think we need more of those. Just like open, casual conversations, people just chatting.
Tris Dyer (01:33.742)
But this is it, like we'll just ask the question and everything else like that. Look, just a few pre -flight things, phone on silent or silent dish. I'm gonna do the same actually because my phone was not on silent last time and I got caught running. Yeah, I gotta, listen, do what I say, not what I do. But yeah, no, phone on silent, heads, make sure you're closing all the other stuff on the end, because Slack is another one that you're like, shit. One thing you can't stop, but you may happen is.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (01:36.764)
Yeah.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (01:45.852)
Well listen to your own rules, Tris.
Tris Dyer (02:02.126)
someone calls you on FaceTime or WhatsApp, you will hear it, we don't. So you don't even need to address it, because it comes up in your headphones. Just by the way, again, I had someone earlier on call and they're like, someone's calling me, it's like, no one can hear it, it's ringing for you. Okay, super, right, way we're gonna do this is, I'll intro, I can use the phonetics that you gave me, which is phenomenal. And then Edwin's gonna hit you with the first question, we'll just chat through it and we'll go naturally from there.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (02:05.66)
Okay, cool.
No, no, that's good to know.
Yeah, what are you supposed to do? Fair.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (02:28.956)
Cool, sounds good. I'm gonna be like switching these questions in a huge way. Just, I know I gave you that heads up, just FYI. Yeah, no, do it.
Tris Dyer (02:32.91)
That's okay. That's all right. Yeah. Well, we're going to ask them as if we don't know anything about a CRO and then you just tell us, all right, tell us how silly we are. Well, I don't don't maybe don't highlight how silly we are. Yeah, idiots. Super. Okay. So, what was it going to say to you at the, at the end, then Edwin's going to just outro and he'll explain at that point. Like I said, recording for all this. So we'll just cut the, the, the, the editor will cut it all out anyway. So I have a little marker button that I just put in and be like, boom.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (02:42.012)
idiots. The worst. I'll try not to do that.
Edwin @ Snappic (03:02.753)
That's it.
Tris Dyer (03:03.15)
Okay, super. So right, let's get this show on the road. This is me doing my like, Jeremy Kyle. What's the equivalent in America? I don't even know like, I don't know. One of these, these television show hosts. I'm like, geeing myself up and ready to go. Okay, right, ready to go. Yeah, don't know about that. Yeah, anyway. Hi guys, welcome to episode. no, we don't, so we don't do that anymore. Okay, try to get in the zone, okay.
Edwin @ Snappic (03:12.865)
You're welcome.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (03:14.812)
idea.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (03:18.972)
You can be Joe Rogan.
Tris Dyer (03:31.182)
Hey guys, welcome back to the Foxwell Founders Forum. We have got a banger for you today. Today we're talking to Kanaka Misra of Better Better Growth. She has been in the CRO game for 12 plus years. If there's something about CRO you need to know and she doesn't know, it's not worth knowing. So Kanaka, welcome. Thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge, spilling the tea with us. So it's a pleasure to have you in. So listen, Edwin, do you want to kick us off with the first question?
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (03:52.956)
Of course.
Edwin @ Snappic (03:58.397)
Yeah, I wanna know, let's come in hot. Tell us what is the bad advice that people are getting?
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (04:06.044)
There is so much bad advice. Do you guys have a week to be on this podcast? All right, where should we start? The worst advice probably is just the idea that one, there is a certain conversion rate that you should be aiming for. That is just so variable. It's so hard. Like if somebody says, what's your conversion rate? And then you give them a number, whether you tell them three or seven or even 15.
Edwin @ Snappic (04:08.541)
so much
Edwin @ Snappic (04:21.981)
Thank you, Jesus. Thank you.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (04:34.78)
that doesn't say a whole lot. That doesn't mean a whole lot, right? So conversion rate on its own is a pretty difficult metric to really understand the health of your business. More so just being able to compare one number and say, hey, that's good. Hey, that's bad. That's tough. I mean, it's the same thing I'm sure for you guys, right? Like when you're thinking about a cost of acquisition, like if somebody says, hey, my cost of acquisition is 70 bucks.
Edwin @ Snappic (04:38.397)
Okay.
Edwin @ Snappic (04:45.341)
So.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (05:02.012)
and you stop there, that doesn't tell you anything really, right? You don't know if their AOV is 70 bucks, you don't know if it's five bucks, you don't know if it's 500 bucks. So on its own, doesn't really mean anything.
Tris Dyer (05:15.918)
all relative, right? It all makes sense.
Edwin @ Snappic (05:16.445)
So what should we be looking for? What does it depend on? Let's do better. Tell us how to do better.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (05:27.932)
Yeah, 100%. I think my favorite answer I've ever heard to this question, you know, when people say, what should my conversion rate be? Is my conversion rate good? Is your conversion rate, a good conversion rate is one that is constantly getting better, especially as you grow, right? And the question you should be asking yourself shouldn't only be, hey, you know, I have a 1 % conversion rate right now. I want to get to a 1 .5. I want to get to a 2%. Cool. Yes. Like that's a good direction to go and you should always be trying to improve it.
But is your conversion rate good or bad? Better question, what's happened to it while you've scaled, while you've grown? If that conversion rate is going down, you know what else is going down? Your bottom line, your profitability, your margins. And why should you focus on conversion rate optimization? So you can keep some money in your pocket, right? You're not running a business for charity. At least most of us aren't.
Tris Dyer (06:18.99)
I hear you.
Edwin @ Snappic (06:23.325)
I want it. Mama wants a new Range Rover. That's what I want.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (06:27.228)
Exactly. Maybe five of them, right? One in every color.
Tris Dyer (06:28.558)
Yeah.
Edwin @ Snappic (06:30.333)
Well, I could have dreams. I could have dreams.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (06:34.204)
That's it. So, you know, that's what you should pay attention to when you're thinking about what's a good conversion rate, what should I be doing? And then, you know, if you do want to kind of macro picture of things, right, like I need some sort of benchmark. I get what you're saying. I understand. I'm going to try to improve my conversion rate. But like, is it just like absolute shit? Am I allowed to say that on this podcast? OK, great.
Tris Dyer (06:40.398)
It constantly going up.
Edwin @ Snappic (06:55.933)
Yeah, 100%. Absolute shit. I just said it too. Don't worry.
Tris Dyer (06:56.078)
You can curse, it's real.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (06:59.292)
Cool, perfect. We can just echo each other now and shit. If you want to know a benchmark and say, okay, I get that, but what's realistic? The better way to look at it is not by industry, it's not by your audience, it's by your AOV, it's by the price of your products. Because people often say, hey, I have a 0 .7 conversion rate. I think that sucks. On its own, at face value, yeah, that sounds pretty effing awful.
Edwin @ Snappic (07:02.749)
Yeah.
Edwin @ Snappic (07:09.245)
Thank you.
Edwin @ Snappic (07:18.511)
Tris Dyer (07:28.366)
It'd be horrible, yeah.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (07:29.246)
But if you're selling things that cost $15 ,000, that's actually probably a lot better than others out there, right? And so like we work with a brand that does sell things in that price point and we've gotten them from a .2 up to that .7. And for them, that's huge when you're selling things at that value. Now, if you're selling something for 20 bucks and your conversion rate is .7,
Edwin @ Snappic (07:29.725)
Okay.
Tris Dyer (07:36.494)
Hey, make sense.
Edwin @ Snappic (07:37.725)
Whoa.
Tris Dyer (07:45.934)
Mm -hmm.
Tris Dyer (07:55.822)
It's gonna hurt.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (07:56.124)
That's tough, right? And like, you don't need a CRO expert to tell you that because you're probably not making any money at that point.
Edwin @ Snappic (07:56.397)
That's hard.
Edwin @ Snappic (08:05.853)
Wait, so what should it be? Like based on your different brackets of AOVs, right? Like let's break it down. Like maybe let's say under 50, what should the conversion rate be? Like, or like as best imperfectly as we can. Give us some guidelines.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (08:22.684)
Yeah, I would say if you're under it
$50 AOV and you have less than 1 % then you have a lot of opportunity to grow. The problem with giving you a full range is that I've seen conversion rates under 50 be 10 to 15 % and that's very high, right? But there's another piece to that puzzle and that's what scale are you at? So if you're only doing 100 orders a month, then getting to 15 % is easier, frankly, right? So that's why it's very difficult
Edwin @ Snappic (08:41.341)
Very.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (08:55.39)
to just have one number and say, okay, yeah, I have a 50 -lar AOV and my conversion rate's three, is that good? Maybe, it could be, but it also could be shit. So really, you need to keep trying to improve it, especially as you scale. So if you're under 1 %...
Tris Dyer (09:02.526)
It's all relative.
Tris Dyer (09:09.87)
Absolutely. So question on that specifically then. So like as you scale, so like, do you say you're at a 10 ,000 people a month traffic, just say, we're calling that people rather than actual conversion rate. So are you looking at different metrics at that level versus say a million? So just to give you an example, say at a lower level, you're maybe just looking at people come to site, add to cart purchase.
Maybe at a million, you're looking at landing pages, how long they're spending on landing pages, how long they're viewing content, they're adding the car, purchasing. Are you looking at different metrics or does everyone kind of look at the same thing? There's a key to it.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (09:44.378)
The metrics themselves are generally the same, to be honest with you. The amount of data is what really, really changes, right? So like whether it's a single SKU store that has 10 ,000 people coming to it, you're still going to look at their purchase path. You're going to look at, okay, where do they come through? What are maybe supplementary pages that they go to that improve conversion rate or help people actually make that decision? You're going to look at time. You're going to look at what they're clicking on, how far they're scrolling, what they're actually doing, add to cart rate, start checkout.
Tris Dyer (09:47.598)
Okay. Okay.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (10:14.332)
completion rate, you're going to look at all of those things for that, you know, single SKU 10 ,000 person store. You're also going to look at that same information for the 500 SKU 1 million person store. But there's more pages to look at. There's more points of information. There's a lot more video recordings and screen grabs and all of that to review. But the process itself, it's simple, but the execution is what makes it a lot more complex when there's so many different funnels.
Tris Dyer (10:24.846)
Mm. Gotcha.
Tris Dyer (10:34.478)
This is it.
It's the same.
Tris Dyer (10:43.086)
People complicate it, right? People complicate it all the time. And like, you know, people complicate it in so far as they go, I'm gonna move this button from here to there. You see screenshots on Twitter and in groups and you're like, I moved this button and improved my CRO by 50 % and my conversion rate by 15%. And I'm like, did you really? Or is there other stuff going on there? Do you see this frequently? Like it's not as simple as moving a button.
Edwin @ Snappic (10:43.997)
crazy. Execution.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (10:44.252)
and things happening.
Edwin @ Snappic (11:03.069)
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (11:08.442)
For sure, for sure. A lot of times when you see that, you know, it's possible, right? Like moving a button can definitely have outsized impact. Like that is, that is, you know, traditional CRO to the core. It's trying to figure out what those simple things are.
Edwin @ Snappic (11:20.445)
Wait, tell the truth. Have you seen it actually happen? Have you seen it actually happen and you not being Amazon?
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (11:28.346)
for changing a button color and skyrocketing conversion rate. Once it was in SAS, though. And it did make actually a really meaningful difference. It was B to C SAS, so more similar than B to B SAS.
Edwin @ Snappic (11:30.621)
Yeah.
Tris Dyer (11:35.566)
Okay.
Edwin @ Snappic (11:35.709)
Okay.
Edwin @ Snappic (11:41.757)
Yeah.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (11:42.714)
But we did change a button from, I believe it was blue and we went to green and we weren't brand, the brand focus wasn't huge at that point. So like no one really gave a shit what we did. And it did, it did. But we had a really, I can give you one of my secrets. We had a really interesting acquisition strategy there that helped us scale. This was when I was in -house that helped us just scale like crazy. And whoever listens to this is gonna know this now. And it's one of those things that feels so ridiculous.
Edwin @ Snappic (11:47.901)
Okay.
Tris Dyer (11:52.334)
I already really care, yeah.
Edwin @ Snappic (11:52.669)
Yeah.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (12:13.948)
that I'd be like, that feels like a waste of money, a waste of traffic, but a very, very, very, very simple pre -sell page. So a splash landing page. So I guess, you know, splash pages is the SAS language. I don't really think it's in DTC, but the splash page is basically just like a quick preview, right? So we went from a Facebook ad to a splash page. That splash page was like a qualification page, but it made, we used a lot of psychology and copy to
Tris Dyer (12:26.99)
Yeah.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (12:42.588)
to make people feel like they needed to get to that next step. We actually said, we had a big stop, like a warning sign and said, hey, this is only for this type of people. If you proceed, you're acknowledging you're this type of person. Are you sure you want to proceed? People hit that button, then they went into our seven step. Yeah, right? Yes, yes, I'm one of those, I'm one of those. Let me see this stuff, I want this. Hit that button, they go into our seven step registration process. They convert like freaking crazy.
Tris Dyer (12:59.918)
Damn, I'm in there. Put me in.
Edwin @ Snappic (13:11.165)
Tris Dyer (13:11.374)
So a lot of it's down to psychology is what you're saying is you really kind of it's not manipulation It's kind of helping people qualify themselves into the into the deal rather and that's sass But I mean it's the same in DTC, right? It's you know, it's qualified best where people do quizzes and things like this It's the very same. It's like what kind of coat hanger am I that kind of thing? Yeah
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (13:24.442)
It's sales.
Yeah.
Exactly, you're qualifying them, you're making sure that they are the right buyer for what you're offering, and then you're making them want it. And if you're not doing that, if you feel weird about making people want your product, then you're in the wrong game here.
Tris Dyer (13:35.95)
Hmm.
Tris Dyer (13:42.35)
This is the wrong business. Wrong business. Damn.
Edwin @ Snappic (13:45.981)
And so all these CRO checklists that we see floating around, are they garbage? Are they good? Which ones are good? the eye roll.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (13:53.498)
You know what, I've been thinking about this a lot and...
I actually think it just needs to be reframed. I don't think it's a CRO checklist. It's not your conversion optimization checklist. This is just like table stakes for having a website. And I think the confusion people are having is like, you need to make your stuff work at a basic level, but CRO checklists that are like, definitely you always have to have review stars here and you have to have this button above the fold and you have to have a sticky add to cart, that stuff is the bullshit.
Edwin @ Snappic (14:02.013)
Okay?
Okay.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (14:28.796)
that stuff work sometimes, it doesn't work other times. So having that as like, we have to do this or hey, I'm gonna charge you a hundred bucks to give you just these random ideas. No, that's not what you should use as the foundation of your site. But there are things that are good there, right? Check your site speed, make sure that there's not something huge just slowing everything down. Make sure that all of your buttons work. Make sure that it's clear that something is a button. Make sure that you're not having text as images. The text is actually text.
Tris Dyer (14:49.806)
Hmm.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (14:58.716)
you have your SEO juice, people can find it, people with ADA compliance. Like there's a lot of things like that, you know, those are table stakes. It's not conversion rate optimization though. It's just getting your website to a decent spot that it works.
Tris Dyer (15:14.03)
Yeah, yeah. And do you feel that, you know, in this industry, you know, there's a lot of snake oil in terms of people sell that at CRO. They're like, you getting to the table stakes is like the CRO agency is like, it's making sure the web designer, whoever's done your website is doing a good job. And you've come to clean that up.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (15:24.922)
Yeah.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (15:30.33)
Yeah, I think unfortunately CRO is very, very, very, very, very new in D2C especially, right? Like I entered CRO for D2C only in 2019 and that's five years ago now, over more than five years ago now. And when I first started talking to D2C founders, you know, at scale, 99 % of my conversations were, what is CRO?
Tris Dyer (15:38.414)
Mm -hmm.
Edwin @ Snappic (15:44.381)
Okay.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (15:56.986)
Why do I need a landing page? You know, like, I already have a website. What does this really do? And, you know, I think it's grown since then, but I wouldn't necessarily say that the knowledge of it has grown in the right way in a lot of ways. People see it now as a quick fix. They also get confused because they see it as a new growth lever, which CRO inherently can never be, right? We are not creating
Edwin @ Snappic (16:01.135)
What does this mean?
Edwin @ Snappic (16:14.173)
Okay.
Okay.
Edwin @ Snappic (16:24.605)
Yeah.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (16:26.94)
new growth. New growth comes from new traffic, new visitors, new users. We are creating supplementary growth from what you already have. And so I think being able to understand that it's your bottom line here that we're really trying to become more efficient with. That is difficult to grasp for.
Tris Dyer (16:43.566)
sense.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (16:47.93)
lot of people. So yeah, your original question was, is there a lot of bullshit out there? There is, because it's not a quick fix. And it's also people are trying to communicate the idea that you're going to suddenly double your business just from CRO. It's more like CRO is going to give you the ability to double your business, but you still have to put in the work to do that.
Edwin @ Snappic (16:49.533)
that.
Edwin @ Snappic (17:03.645)
Whoa.
Tris Dyer (17:11.566)
you still gotta be spending, you gotta send the traffic there. You're still gonna be getting all of the right type of traffic as well. That's one of the biggest kind of questions that always gets asked is like, well, is it just send better quality traffic or is it convert them better? And, you know, there's an argument on both sides, but like, I'm sure you have that frustration all the time. You're like, well, if you send better quality traffic, if you don't try and get off Buzzfeed, you might actually get somewhere with your sales. Like, there's no knocking Buzzfeed, but it's good.
Edwin @ Snappic (17:12.157)
Thanks.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (17:34.938)
I do, but I don't. Yeah, I do, but I don't. And the reason for that is I started as, I was in paid media for many, many, many years, right? I'm a performance marketer. I don't approach CRO from a design and development background. I approach it from a performance marketing growth. I was head of growth at a couple of companies in -house, right? So I approach it as an acquisition tool. And with that, I...
I get when people say, hey, send better people to the site. But my CTO used to have the same argument with me, and I disagreed. And what I think matters more is,
Edwin @ Snappic (18:04.957)
that you have to try to set.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (18:14.33)
making sure that the people that you're getting are interested, right? So if you're advertising something totally different than what you're actually selling, then yeah, that's the wrong traffic, right? But if, and again, I know this is old school because I don't do paid media anymore, but I still believe that it's a very good indicator. If your soft metrics, if your cost per clicks, if your click through rates, if those things are strong and people are interested in what it means, people are interested in what you're putting out there, people are interested enough to click, and then if your conversion rate is a massive drop off,
Then it's not a traffic quality question, right? You have people who are interested. You've generated that demand. You're having an issue actually getting them over that hump, which is purchasing and putting down their credit card. That's not a quality question. If you have not really that many people interested and you're at a really small scale, then no, you should be focusing on your ads. Like, CRO's not gonna do shit for you.
Tris Dyer (18:57.646)
Yeah. Okay.
Tris Dyer (19:07.694)
Yeah, I hear you.
Edwin @ Snappic (19:08.157)
Wait, can you repeat that one more time? Because I feel like I've had that same conversation like at least two times this week. At least two times this week.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (19:16.152)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you have strong, soft metrics, click -through rate is strong. Cost per click is good. That's telling you you have demanded interest from people that you want in a great way. So that part's probably not broken. The quality of your traffic is not the issue. But if your conversion rate after that sucks, it's your site. It's the post -click experience that sucks getting them over that hump.
If instead, your ad metrics, they're not that good, right? Like you're kind of getting by, but they're not awesome. That's where you need to focus. Focus on your campaigns, focus on your creative, focus on everything top, top of funnel, and then focus on who you're writing.
Tris Dyer (20:00.59)
Yeah, it's the biggest return, biggest bang for your buck will be up there and then you can start fixing these issues down further down the stream. So just, I mean, the question specifically on that, I suppose, if I'm, let's call it, we're in a world, in a DC world, fashion brand, right, an apparel vertical, okay? I'm looking at this going, okay, I need to try, I've got, my people are interested in the products, they see these ads, my hold rate, my hook rate is class, people come into my site and they're going, nope.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (20:05.783)
Exactly.
Tris Dyer (20:29.902)
What are the couple of things, I mean, it's kind of a generic question, but what are the couple of things that I could do like this week, this month, I mean, we're just starting the new quarter. Like what are these things we can do now ahead of Black Friday to make sure that we can get our conversion rate into a good place?
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (20:43.991)
Yeah, 100%. One is make sure that there's nothing broken, right? Like that sometimes happens. Check out on every browser, on every device, everything. Have your friends go, have your family go through it. Click every single link, right? Like there's things too that your own team, you're on your site 75 times every single day. You're gonna miss a lot because your eyes have just now become blind to those things. So have other people outside of your realm go through it and make sure. So that's number one to get ready for any sale for Black Friday, all of that.
Tris Dyer (20:52.43)
Hmm.
Tris Dyer (21:05.71)
Mm.
Tris Dyer (21:10.286)
Yeah, okay.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (21:13.897)
Number two, and I say this often, but you can learn so much from just watching people on your site. And I believe that this is a lot more helpful, frankly, than user testing and user surveys. I like those things, don't get me wrong. They're great directional pieces of feedback, they're learning experiences. But what you're gonna get a whole hell of a lot more information from is what do people do when they get to my homepage? What do they do when they get my product page?
So you install something like Microsoft Clarity, which is totally free. It captures screen recordings, heat maps, click maps, scroll maps, all of that. And then you plug your computer in to your TV this weekend. You let it autoplay for two hours. You grab some snacks, you grab a notepad, and you start writing down what you see as patterns of behavior. And then as you see the same thing happening between other people, just tally them. After two hours, you're going to have a list
Edwin @ Snappic (22:00.125)
Whoa. Okay.
Tris Dyer (22:12.366)
Hey.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (22:13.673)
of what people are doing on your site. Step two, you say, okay, why are people doing all of these things? Are they problems? Okay, what could those problems be? Okay, how do we fix these, right? This is the process of using data, qualitative data, to then identify problems, to then create hypotheses, and then create solutions, then you test those solutions. This is CRO in a nutshell. Do it qualitatively. You can do that quickly.
Tris Dyer (22:42.862)
That's such a fire. That's so good. That's so good. I never thought I'd get into a time when I'd be so excited to watch. So when on my site, more importantly than watching the game of the weekend, I can't wait to do that. I'm just going to hook it up. Yeah. Well, maybe the finals. I'll leave the finals alone. Yeah. Yeah. Midseason game. I'm watching the I'm watching people on my site all day long. I'm going to have to do a big explaining to a few people about why I'm sitting there looking at people on my site. But whatever.
Edwin @ Snappic (22:44.125)
bed.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (22:44.502)
You
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (22:54.422)
Hahaha, depends on the game, depends on the game, but yeah, you know that. Grab some beers, treat it like championship, exactly.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (23:06.71)
Hell yeah.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (23:11.542)
Yeah, they get a little creeped out, but it's cool.
Tris Dyer (23:14.126)
That's amazing.
Edwin @ Snappic (23:14.857)
So instead of watching House of Dragons, we're watching on the big screen this weekend. Me and Triss, this is what we are.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (23:22.549)
Yes, yes, you're gonna watch people rage clicking your homepage, they're gonna be scrolling up and down your PDPs being confused as everything, and you're just gonna love every second of it.
Tris Dyer (23:31.054)
Nice nice love that love that
Edwin @ Snappic (23:35.005)
So I want to so going off that I want like some more some more actionable some more actionable advice right so let's say you are a fashion and apparel brand there's I don't feel like there's much to do on on a product detail page right you got the photos you got the description obviously you know more what what are the things that you've seen that have moved the needle
that have actually had an effect.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (24:08.117)
I love this question because it's really fun for fashion and apparel. And we've worked with a lot more fashion apparel over probably the last 12 to 18 months. And so this isn't going to be a surprising answer, but sizing and playing with your sizing charts that displays how it appears on the page. Sizing is pretty much the number one blocker or opportunity for CRO. So one is, if you just have that generic chart that everyone has,
Edwin @ Snappic (24:26.141)
Edwin @ Snappic (24:33.341)
Okay.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (24:38.198)
That's people's eyes glaze over on that too, right? No one wants to get out. Who even has a tape measure, right? Not everyone for sure. So it can be as simple as I do too, but okay, cool. Maybe everyone does. Yeah, I could have guessed that. I didn't think Tris had one, but no one's gonna do that, right? So like it can be as simple as runs true to size, add that.
Edwin @ Snappic (24:44.765)
No. Well, I have one.
Tris Dyer (24:47.502)
Yeah, you're old school guys. You're old school. We're young, young hip people like myself. We don't have any intake measures.
Edwin @ Snappic (24:52.601)
I'd like to say.
Edwin @ Snappic (24:59.293)
We're gonna do it.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (25:04.853)
If you just have the little hyperlink that says size guide, and the only way people know where it skews at all is from clicking on that size guide or maybe reading a bunch of reviews. Maybe instead be honest with it and say, it runs a little bit large. it runs a little small. That's a very simple thing that you can do. Otherwise, even better is starting to play with the way that that's displayed. So you can add imagery, for example, on those size charts. So it's not just numbers. And you can even show people if they do have the measuring table.
how to measure it. You can give them more resources to get the right size. But even more fun with things that I really enjoy is if you can get different sized, different shaped models.
wearing that piece of clothing, right? And then you can add like a carousel, for example. And so you can have Tris and Edwin and Joe and, you know, Jack all wearing the same shirt, but, you know, Tris is this height, Edwin is this height, Joe is this height, Jack is this height. They're different weights even, and show them because people want to. The whole game of e -commerce is making people feel like they're in a store and they're physically buying it and they can touch it and try it and see it and feel it. Apparel is really hard.
for that. So instead you want to help people identify, do I look like Edwin? Do I look like Tris? Do I look like Joe? Do I look like Jack? Okay, how does this fall on their body? Do I like that look? Should I size up? Should I size down? Based on them. They basically want to see themselves in that clothing, so give them a range of people that they could look like and have that.
Tris Dyer (26:36.366)
So good as well, because we see so many brands getting high returns. They'll be like, it's 20 inches. It's like, what does that even mean? Nobody knows. Especially in a circumference, they're like, what is that? So it's good to have pictures of people who look kind of like them. Modell is six foot five and is wearing small. We see that go down all the time. It works. And so that works from a conversion rate point of view as well as the health returns.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (26:41.748)
for sure.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (26:45.556)
Exactly, yeah.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (26:55.541)
Right.
Edwin @ Snappic (26:59.525)
So I'll see you at 7.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (27:02.699)
1000%, 1000 % it helps your customer service. There's a lot of these things that, you know, conversion rate at the end of the day is the game of improving your user experience. And if you have a really good user experience, that inherently makes your customer service get, get better. You have less people complaining and asking questions because you find a way to answer those questions before they even purchase the clothing.
Tris Dyer (27:10.318)
Hmm.
Edwin @ Snappic (27:22.909)
So that sizing thing that you're talking about, like a carousel. So what is that? Is it like I'm showing three different people that are wearing like a small, medium and large and saying, okay, cool. Like Edwin is this many pounds, six foot tall. He's wearing a size medium. And then Tris is like this tall, this many pounds. He's wearing a size large. Or are you showing two different people wearing the same size? Like what is it?
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (27:49.076)
That's what you test, right? And you have to kind of know your audience at that point. Like, is it something that people of all different ranges would really want different sizing? Or is it more like athletic apparel where you care more about maybe the length of it because it's so stretchy that it's gonna fit fine? But those are two different things that people are looking for. So the more that you can add in there, the better, right? Like if you can have 15 different photos, it's one of those things that it feels like, my God, we're giving people a lot of steps to take. But as you watch it,
video recordings you'll see people are taking the time to go through those and it's the same reason why oftentimes with apparel it's a very very very good idea to have the setting in your testimonials your reviews to allow people to add pictures because people go through those they want to see okay can I find somebody that looks like me that has similar traits as me adding a photo so I know what it looks like on them just solve that instead of making them go through 85 reviews to get that information solve it by doing it for
them in this capsule.
Tris Dyer (28:50.894)
Nice, nice, I love that. So you talked earlier on about various different kind of splash pages and landing pages and stuff like that. You know, this sounds like a really obvious question, but like I'm a business owner, I'm doing half a mil a year and you know, I'm doing okay, but I'm doing lots, right? And I know a lot about inventory management and I'm running my ads and I've got all this going and ready to go. But I'm kind of like, I'm not a web developer. I need to pay my web developer hundreds of quid, maybe thousands to make a difference on the site.
Edwin @ Snappic (28:51.389)
Tris Dyer (29:20.782)
Is there an easy way to make changes to your CRO or you're making your site that will actually help? Maybe not quite the button change, but something else.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (29:29.365)
100%. It depends what you're looking for, but even our agency, we rely on other tools just to make things faster and easier and more cost effective, frankly, for our partners. So some of the tools that we like, it depends what you need, but if you're a one man show, like what you're kind of describing Tris, and you want to start trying out landing pages to improve your cost of acquisition, just to make things faster, to just give more insight into your funnel, PageDeck is a fantastic product for really quick, really fast pages. It integrates
directly with Shopify. And it's one of those, I like to describe it as kind of Canva for landing pages.
Tris Dyer (30:07.638)
nice. Page death.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (30:08.308)
If you're looking for something, yeah, it's easy. It's simple. You can get things live in 15 minutes or less, right? So if you're one man show, one woman show, and you're just trying to go and you have, and you still want something beautiful, but you don't need tons of fancy bells and whistles and the ability to just do like anything and everything under the sun, Page Deck is where you want to be. If you are somebody who is super brand focused or you want to do really, you know, different things, or you just really like to have that flexibility,
Tris Dyer (30:28.686)
It's where you wanna be at.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (30:38.262)
then Replo is where we go for that. So again, PageDeck is like Canva, whereas Replo is more like a Photoshop Figma type of tool. Depends what you want, but they're both fantastic. you lost me again.
Tris Dyer (30:47.502)
I think I lost. I think I lost. damn. Can I get you that we we lost you halfway through that sentence. You pick up from Replo or we can cut that part out.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (30:57.236)
Okay, RepLob, if you want more flexibility, if you want to be able to do anything and everything, if you just want the...
flexibility at the end of the day, then you want to use Replo. Replo is like Figma or Photoshop, whereas PageDeck is more like Canva. So it depends what you want. It depends on your time resources. It just depends on, you know, really your preference, but both of them are fantastic tools. The one thing I will say about Replo is if you want to make changes to your site pages, so not only landing pages, not only, you know, where people are coming in through ads, then Replo
Tris Dyer (31:20.142)
Mm -hmm.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (31:34.645)
actually allows you to build sections within your site. So if you want to add this carousel, for example, that we just talked about for sizing, you can build that into Replo and you can add it to your landing pages and your site pages. And it's very simple. You don't need a developer to do something like that. And they have a lot of great sections as well. So it makes things fast.
Tris Dyer (31:55.63)
Nice, and so then like if you're doing the kind of grown rep though a little bit, when does it become time to have a CRO agency? So I'm doing a bit of this stuff, I've seen some good results, I've got all the great traffic, I'm making millions, when do I start going and bringing a CRO agency? You talk to get a certain amount of traffic and you optimize your top level, but when do I start going, okay, are my benchmarks right? When do I need to make that decision to go to a CRO agency?
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (32:20.948)
Again, it depends on kind of your goals. It depends how quickly you want to get there. It depends on, you know, what, what type of lift you would need realistically to pay for a CRO agency. the CRO, obviously I'm a little bit biased, but CRO is one of those things that more often than not, it makes sense to use an agency rather than trying to hire in -house. In -house, you need to hire a developer, a designer, a copywriter, a strategist. And sometimes you also need a data analyst.
separately, right? Sometimes the strategist and the data analyst can be the same person. So that's like a four to five person full -time headcount, which is, even if you outsource that, right? That's expensive. Versus on the CRO side, if you're working with a good CRO agency, you're getting those same people. You're getting a bunch of experts rather than like one person who kind of is a jack of all trades, but that's tough because they don't have that singular subject matter expertise. They also can miss things because it's one person. So with that, when you're working with an agency,
Edwin @ Snappic (33:02.365)
What's that?
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (33:20.774)
you're typically getting all four or five of those folks for the cost of maybe one full time or or less.
At what point does it make sense to hire them? Generally, if you're under a million or so, you're better off trying it yourself because you can, right? There's a lot of really simple tests that make a big impact. Copy. I talked about it before. I'll say it. It's a hill I'll die on. But copy is the strongest conduit of strategy in my experience. You can not be a great designer, but you can figure out how to communicate really well.
Edwin @ Snappic (33:31.805)
Thank you.
Tris Dyer (33:52.27)
Okay.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (33:57.845)
really clearly, really effectively with your customers.
Tris Dyer (34:02.894)
And has AI really played into that then? Has that like, chat GPT people just lashing in their personas and say like, right, this copy or where does that kind of, where's the line there? Cause obviously chat GPT is allowed for more copy, but like good copy, don't know.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (34:16.819)
It's exactly that. It's allowed for more copy, but good copy is a, that's a, that's a strong word. Chat, GPT, you know, all the AI tools, they really help with ideation, like 100%. You know, if you feel like you have writer's block or you can't think about how else could I say this? Ask ChatGP to make five more variations for you. Ask it to make 10 more variations for you. You can even train it to, to like talk like you and your brand, just dump in, you know, all the different things that you've said, add copy, email copy, your site copy. So, okay.
Tris Dyer (34:22.158)
Yeah.
Tris Dyer (34:27.598)
Mm -hmm.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (34:46.726)
here's the style, here's the voice, give me five variations, but you still have to give them a prompt, right? Here, I need a new headline for my collections page and I want you to tell them that it also includes a 30 -day money -back guarantee and a warranty. Okay, great.
Edwin @ Snappic (35:02.765)
Like what are you trying to, when you say copy though, like let's say you're on a Fashion Imparo brand, right? And you're selling a shirt, right? Like let's say the shirt, like what is there more to say besides like, it's a hundred percent cotton, it's a cam collar, right? Like, because sometimes that you walk into a spot and like that's what it is, right? They're like a hundred percent cotton, like cam collar and
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (35:08.851)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (35:26.835)
Is that, let me ask you this then Edwin, is that going to make you, you know, this shirt costs 90 bucks. It's not the cheapest, it's not the most expensive. It's, you know, you're spending on it, you're considering it. And you walk in or, you know, you go to the site and it says 100 % cotton. I don't remember the other thing you said, whatever, whatever, another bullet point. Or you see the same shirt from a different brand and it says something like,
Edwin @ Snappic (35:33.949)
Right.
Edwin @ Snappic (35:47.581)
Yeah, whatever.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (35:56.851)
feels like a cool breeze on a summer day. Sweat wicking, you're never gonna have pit stains, and you know, soft to the touch. Which one feels like it's worth 90 bucks?
Edwin @ Snappic (36:06.141)
Okay.
Edwin @ Snappic (36:11.773)
So, so copy mostly focused on, on USPs, right? Like, or if, if, okay.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (36:15.762)
It can be. That's just one example, right? It can also be headlines, for example. I think headlines are always a really great place to stick in more value. So instead of just saying 100 % cotton, organic cotton t -shirt, you can say 100 % organic cotton t -shirt, number one bestseller, our most loved shirt. There's anything else that you have during your research with your customers or what people like, stick that into the headline. That means that they get that right away. USPs in the descriptions, headlines.
Edwin @ Snappic (36:43.133)
Okay.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (36:45.716)
as you bulk out your landing pages and your PDPs, homepage sections, like copy is everywhere. And yes, you can just use it for the function of describing something, but why wouldn't you bump it up? Because at the end of the day, you're trying to get somebody from, okay, yes, this serves my function, but you don't want them to see you as a commodity if you want to have a long -term relationship with it or with them.
Edwin @ Snappic (37:11.389)
Yeah. So, so hot take website redesigns. Bullshit. No bullshit.
Tris Dyer (37:13.358)
That's good.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (37:21.17)
What would be the bullshit?
Edwin @ Snappic (37:23.357)
I don't know, you tell me, give me the hot take. Should like people, people could, cause I, I like, I was on a call this week and they're like, yo, we want to redesign our website. So we want to, we want to push off our, our rollout. I'm going to put 10 K. I have my thoughts. I want to know your thoughts.
Tris Dyer (37:25.518)
I suppose the...
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (37:40.242)
Proceed with caution. So website redesigns No, proceed. Yeah, but you have to be right like it's that age -old question of like brand versus performance Like which one matters more and at what stage does it matter more and like there's a lot of things that you have to consider with that So website redesigns More often than not your performance is gonna suck for two to three months after you do a website redesign. Yeah and
Edwin @ Snappic (37:42.973)
Diplomatic, diplomatic.
Tris Dyer (37:43.598)
you
Tris Dyer (38:05.71)
Three months? Wow, okay.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (38:09.65)
You need to be financially prepared to deal with that. If you're going to go through with this website redesign, especially if you have not done CRO to understand which elements are working, which what they don't work. And especially if you haven't worked with a good CRE agency, who's just like testing random icons that you're not even bringing over, right? Like you need learnings when you're doing CRO, learnings that tell you about your customers and actual user behavior and site elements. A lot of times like CRO is like, we added this thing. Okay, cool. What the hell does that mean for the future?
If you don't know that, you're not really learning. So if you haven't taken that process at all, you're extra kind of screwed. But when is it worth it? It's worth it if, one, you can financially take that.
Two, it's worth it if you are confident that doing this redesign is setting you up for success one to two to three years down the road. If you just look like shit and you're never going to be able to charge more than $20 for your product because you just don't have that trust in your customers, and if it just doesn't make you feel good about what you're doing, you're probably going to burn out before the company even reaches two to three years down the road.
If you're confident that this investment is good for your long -term future, you need to think about all these different things, then it might be worth it. But that's pretty much it. Otherwise, you're way better off taking a slow and steady and very calculated approach. That's another reason I love landing pages, frankly, too. You can start testing a new vibe. You can start testing new branding on landing pages.
Edwin @ Snappic (39:31.453)
Okay.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (39:46.674)
you don't have to do your whole site. And if that does pretty well, then you can base parts of that site off those landing page winds.
Edwin @ Snappic (39:54.237)
Okay.
Tris Dyer (39:54.286)
I wanna hear from you just two things and this is something we haven't said before so I'm gonna start again, right? But this is just, I'm dying to know. So I'm dying to hear, why does the, tell us a horror story and tell us a glory story of like, CRO, so like maybe they've done a change or they've done something and what's the worst thing that you've seen that could happen when testing all this stuff? Because I mean, people are really, like they're cautious, they go into this and they go, it could completely mess up my brand.
What's the worst thing you've seen? You've been doing this for 12 years, so you must have seen it.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (40:24.978)
Yeah, no, this is super top of mind actually based on Edwin's last question. So again, when I was in house, we had a site that was working. It worked for a number of years. It was fine, but it was old school. It didn't look that pretty. There's a lot of things that just didn't feel updated. And we felt that, you know, that UX UI could be better. And so.
We took all of our in -house teams time. We had developers working on this. We had designers working on this. We had our marketing team working on it. We had product folks working on it. Year, year and a half long project. So just think about the compounding time of that many team members doing this. And again, this is software. So that's why some of the backend stuff takes longer. But let's even cut that down and say, OK, the equivalent in D to C e -com time, that's still like four to five months if you're having your in -house team do it, because there's other stuff that they're doing.
Edwin @ Snappic (41:02.205)
Okay.
Edwin @ Snappic (41:13.085)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (41:15.795)
too. So yeah, let's yeah, they're doing work. So let's say four to five months. That might even be short, but four to five months. We spent a year, year and a half. How much? How many? I don't know, it's probably in payroll. 800, a million dollars rolled it out. We were we were like, this thing's beautiful, has more function, has more features. It's so much easier to use. There's all this stuff.
Tris Dyer (41:31.602)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Edwin @ Snappic (41:33.661)
a lot. Yeah.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (41:43.345)
flopped, completely flopped. Every, everything, every single KPI that we had to go to our investors about. Bye, see ya. We ended up having to roll it back. So we rolled it back, things normalized again. No, I mean, it still took maybe a week or two, right? But it wasn't like a many, many months thing that it took to normalize. That's what made it very clear, right? It was shit.
Edwin @ Snappic (41:51.485)
See you on...
Tris Dyer (41:57.454)
And they normalised again overnight, they were like back to normal, like it was okay.
Tris Dyer (42:07.886)
You can switch back. I think the lesson I'm learning here is you can do all that. You can switch back. So test fast rather than test big.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (42:13.617)
Yeah, exactly, exactly that. And you can roll back the theme, you can't roll back the time. So always think about opportunity cost. They can't ask everyone for their salaries back. You can't ask your agency for the money back. You can ask. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can. I'll wish you good luck on that one.
Tris Dyer (42:26.414)
You can ask. You can ask. You answer a question. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Nice. Nice. Well, I mean, that's a big learning in that is like how fast you're actually doing this. And that's where these tools that you suggested are actually really good. You can do frequent tests all the time and then spend that time with the popcorn in front of the TV instead of watching that match or How's the Dragons. So what about...
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (42:49.233)
Exactly, exactly. I will put a caveat to that though, because I think here's another bullshit CRO.
piece of wisdom that people have is volume of testing, right? Like CRO is very much a quality over quantity game. And I think a lot of people get very caught up in like, I can run seven tests with these guys, or I can run two tests with these guys. That's a fair question to ask, but you need to go deeper. Are you running seven high quality tests that you're gonna be able to learn from and that actually gets just a little significance and confidence that it's not gonna just flop next month? Or can you run two that are based on a lot of data
Tris Dyer (43:02.734)
Okay.
Tris Dyer (43:21.71)
Mm -hmm.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (43:25.491)
are much more likely to win and that will help you in other areas of your business or it will help you in the future if you ever want to do a redesign. What is the cost benefit of that? Think about that. It's a learning. Yeah, don't...
Tris Dyer (43:33.966)
I hear ya.
It's a learning. Everything needs to be a learning that is back, but like repeatable, I suppose is the thing.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (43:41.713)
And you can waste a shitload of money doing a lot more tests, right? Because there's inherent risk in testing. There's one version's gonna lose usually. Like I think the other thing that people don't realize is most tests lose or are inclusive, right? It's something like in -house teams, it's like 20, 25 % of them get to a conclusive answer at all. And I think like 13 of them actually win. When you're working with an agency, that number is typically higher because that's what they do day in and day out. They have a larger data set. They can compare against that type of thing.
still, like that number for a good agency is like 27, 30 percent. There's a lot of agencies that say, you know, maybe 50 percent. If they can do that, that's sick. Like that is, that's great. If they can't, that's very normal. So don't, don't stress out.
Tris Dyer (44:23.79)
So not every test will prove like statistically significant. It's actually they have got to test these things, but they won't always, you won't always find a winner. So it might be like, that's like, they look to say.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (44:32.817)
Exactly. There's a lot of tests that run that are like, these things aren't really that different. Then at that point, if there's actually like no or very little revenue profit conversion rate, AOV lift, that is that is one of those times where you could actually say, do I like this better? Right. Like, is this design closer to what I'm going towards? Because if it's not making a negative impact, then great. It's making a maybe an intangible impact.
Edwin @ Snappic (44:36.765)
What do you do? What do you do?
Edwin @ Snappic (44:46.301)
Okay.
Tris Dyer (44:53.262)
Hmm.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (45:02.771)
that you can't measure, that you don't know from dollars.
Edwin @ Snappic (45:04.349)
Okay. Okay.
Tris Dyer (45:05.102)
Love that, love that. That's a really good piece of advice. I mean, I've come into this going, every test I do will learn, I'll learn something new and do this. Nope. Like a good rate of that is like 50%. Sometimes you're gonna be, that's amazing.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (45:18.033)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you'll learn. I would still say you learn something, but is it usable? Like if you learn that, hey, this redesign is exactly the same as the control, what you've learned is that, well, maybe it's a redesign of one section. What you've learned is that that section is probably not a very big sticking point or persuasion point for the customers, right? So it's not worth spending the time going further on that. That's the learning.
Tris Dyer (45:27.438)
Mm -hmm.
Tris Dyer (45:36.622)
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Tris Dyer (45:41.646)
Love that. Love that. So just to follow up question to that, Ben, so you talked about your horror story, but have you seen a glory story where it was like, this is amazing. We've, you know, we changed a couple of things and these guys went from half a million to three million a year in, I mean.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (45:56.113)
man, there's a lot of things like that. And again, like what I want to say there is that it's not only dependent on the test, it's really dependent on the team surrounding it, because you need to also be working with a strong media buying team or strong internal team that can then say, wow, we are this much more efficient. We are, you know, we're able to convert this much more people, meaning that, our cacks are this much lower. Now, how do we make the strategic move to be able to use our budgets properly? So there is a level of sophistication that, you know, when you're
hearing, this brand went from this to this, either it's bullshit, they have a really strong and intelligent in -house or paid media partner, or they're not at all giving credit to the fact that it was more than likely a lot of other things that had a perfect storm that made that happen. That being said, there's a couple that come to mind that...
Tris Dyer (46:44.59)
time of year or whatever. Yeah.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (46:50.993)
They're more just annoying than anything else. Like they're such big wins and you're like, what the hell? Like this is so frustrating. And the one of them that sticks out in my mind so much because it's probably one of the tests that has pissed me off the most is, and this is great for apparel brands. It was an apparel brand actually. And a lot of people do this where they have a free shipping threshold, right? Free shipping over a hundred bucks. And so all over the site, they have it on their top banner. They have it on the PDPs, free shipping over a hundred bucks. But the question that next -
Edwin @ Snappic (47:11.837)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (47:20.947)
naturally any customer would have is how much is shipping under a hundred bucks? Right? And if it's even possible to find, it's very hard to find. Either you have to start checkout to get there, which pisses people off because I don't want to be, you know, shocked here. I don't want to be bamboozled. Just tell me. Or it's hidden in, you know, some like very deep FAQs. Oftentimes it's not in FAQs to be honest. For these guys, it was nowhere. You had to start checkout to get it.
Edwin @ Snappic (47:27.389)
Yeah.
Edwin @ Snappic (47:38.173)
Yeah.
Edwin @ Snappic (47:45.021)
these guys.
Tris Dyer (47:48.174)
Standard, really. I don't think anyone tells you that.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (47:50.097)
A lot of people don't. So very simple test that we just ran. We added just a little copy near the add to cart button that said standard tripping is $4 .99.
Edwin @ Snappic (48:01.661)
Okay.
Tris Dyer (48:02.158)
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (48:02.321)
conversion rate fucking skyrocketed sorry AOV skyrocketed all this stuff just went way up because if you do think about user psychology now now they understand what they're working with they have the full picture now they say okay would I rather spend five bucks on shipping or I'd rather spend another 25 bucks on another shirt but hey I get a shirt out of it right I'm not just paying for air
Edwin @ Snappic (48:06.557)
What?
Edwin @ Snappic (48:26.461)
Yeah.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (48:26.481)
And cool, I don't feel bamboozled anymore. I feel like I know what to expect because I'm not gonna buy $99 worth of stuff. So it's either do you wanna have the customer at all or do you only want people who will spend over $99? I think most people would say, yeah, I want the customer rather than just zero. Very frustrating.
Tris Dyer (48:26.798)
you
Edwin @ Snappic (48:39.581)
Say hi. Say hi, baby. Say hi. Whoa.
Tris Dyer (48:43.982)
Hey, so you put in like how much they're actually saving what the value the dollar value is for it for each of their free shipping that you're going to be or whatever the banner is the top.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (48:53.905)
Yeah, it's the best if they have a standard rate, right? So like, hey, for standard shipping, anything under $99, it costs five. I think these guys are actually like seven, but whatever it is, like seven bucks otherwise. If you have dynamic shipping, that's something that you can also just have your developer do, so they can kind of put it in. But yeah, it's a very simple, simple, simple test. It really bothers me because it was such a huge winner, and it was just one of those things that takes you 15 minutes to set up.
Edwin @ Snappic (49:00.673)
I know that happens.
Tris Dyer (49:05.294)
Nice.
Tris Dyer (49:21.806)
man, that must have been tough to kind of go, that one thing.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (49:25.265)
Yeah, because we did so many other things that were like so much bigger and like so much just like, I don't know, there's a lot more that went into it and either the wins were not wins or they were much smaller. Like that one I think it was like 20 % increase in RPV and you're like, come on.
Edwin @ Snappic (49:33.597)
Beautiful Wednesday.
Tris Dyer (49:40.558)
Yeah, that's incredible. Well, kind of, that's just amazing. Some of the stuff there is, is phenomenal. Like, so if an Edwin are going notes notes, like Ryan, that last one is, is immediately thinking of three clients that I can be talking to next week going, try this, try this stuff out. So what we do know now is Edwin just outro us. we'll mark that. And then what we do is like a book ends it. So, Edwin, do you want to just explain that?
Edwin @ Snappic (49:44.321)
So.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (49:50.065)
Hahaha!
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (49:55.569)
Let's do it. Yeah.
Edwin @ Snappic (50:07.581)
Yeah, so I'm gonna outro us. I'm gonna say my name's my name's Edwin I'm gonna say yeah, I'm gonna say my name's Edwin and then just be like my name's Tris and then kind of and then you'll You'll say your name and then I'll say, you know, we'll see on the next one My my just as a heads up Tris knows this You don't know this my drop -off is like real quick so like I'll like say some shit and now it's like I'm Edwin and then
Tris Dyer (50:36.526)
Yeah, yeah.
Edwin @ Snappic (50:37.341)
And he's like, whoa, what the fuck?
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (50:39.793)
Okay. Good heads up, good heads up. All right, so he's gonna do that and then Trish, you'll go right after him and then I'll go and then we're... Okay, all right, cool. Sounds good.
Tris Dyer (50:42.894)
Yeah.
Yeah, and it's just it's just the thing we do at the end. Yeah. Okay, go for it, Evan.
Edwin @ Snappic (50:46.109)
Yeah. Yeah. All right. Cool. Guys, we learned incredible. The things that you need to do with the CRO, we learned website redesigns. Is it bullshit? Is it not? That little snippet that you need to add after the free shipping that is going to do so much for you. It's been unbelievable. My name's Edwin.
Tris Dyer (51:12.974)
I'm Tris.
Kanika Misra (BedaBeda Growth) (51:14.126)
Karnika.
Edwin @ Snappic (51:15.197)
We'll see you on the next one.
Tris Dyer (51:16.878)
Bye.